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	<title>Comments on: Is having an open mind the problem?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/</link>
	<description>A blog on the politics and psychology underlying the denial of all our environmental problems</description>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1365</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would prefer it then if you did not try and reduce my position to that of someone who relies on Wikipedia - it is merely, as I think I have said before, a convenient one-stop-shop for finding those all-important sources of information.  My position is not one of blindly following anybody.  

&lt;strong&gt;For about the third time I say it then, my post addressed specifically to you &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;today&lt;/a&gt; summarises all that I think is illogical about your position; and provides plenty of evidence to support that assertion&lt;/strong&gt;.  

Therefore, if you post any more comments here (in this thread) I will ignore and/or delete them.  You have been warned.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would prefer it then if you did not try and reduce my position to that of someone who relies on Wikipedia &#8211; it is merely, as I think I have said before, a convenient one-stop-shop for finding those all-important sources of information.  My position is not one of blindly following anybody.  </p>
<p><strong>For about the third time I say it then, my post addressed specifically to you <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/" rel="nofollow">today</a> summarises all that I think is illogical about your position; and provides plenty of evidence to support that assertion</strong>.  </p>
<p>Therefore, if you post any more comments here (in this thread) I will ignore and/or delete them.  You have been warned.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kosowski</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kosowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&quot;This is certainly the position Bickmore has reached. He is content that the consensus is real and that it’s conclusions are valid.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
I submit that Bickmore reached his view by actually investigating the science, and he continues to do so.  I have seen him actually discussing the science.  He no more wants me to accept his AGW view on the basis that it is his view than he wants me to accept Lord Monkton&#039;s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;This is certainly the position Bickmore has reached. He is content that the consensus is real and that it’s conclusions are valid.&#8221;</em><br />
I submit that Bickmore reached his view by actually investigating the science, and he continues to do so.  I have seen him actually discussing the science.  He no more wants me to accept his AGW view on the basis that it is his view than he wants me to accept Lord Monkton&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: John Kosowski</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kosowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;&quot;BTW, is there any reason why you continue to post comments here as opposed to my subsequent posts&quot;&lt;/em&gt;
Because you keep asking specific questions here related to specific posts here.  I am only even making this post because... you asked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;BTW, is there any reason why you continue to post comments here as opposed to my subsequent posts&#8221;</em><br />
Because you keep asking specific questions here related to specific posts here.  I am only even making this post because&#8230; you asked.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1362</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1362</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, in light of all that Bickmore says (none of which I have a problem with), I will now re-word my position: Although it is not wise to blindly follow authority, I am disputing that you have any reason to doubt what the consensus view of science is.  &lt;strong&gt;This is certainly the position Bickmore has reached.  He is content that the consensus is real and that its conclusions are valid.&lt;/strong&gt;  You do not seem so content; and I do not understand why that is.

BTW, is there any reason why you continue to post comments here as opposed to my subsequent posts (including the one addressed specifically to you- I decided not to wait until midnight)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, in light of all that Bickmore says (none of which I have a problem with), I will now re-word my position: Although it is not wise to blindly follow authority, I am disputing that you have any reason to doubt what the consensus view of science is.  <strong>This is certainly the position Bickmore has reached.  He is content that the consensus is real and that its conclusions are valid.</strong>  You do not seem so content; and I do not understand why that is.</p>
<p>BTW, is there any reason why you continue to post comments here as opposed to my subsequent posts (including the one addressed specifically to you- I decided not to wait until midnight)?</p>
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		<title>By: John Kosowski</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1361</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kosowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1361</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Really only one is relevant, Martin. Again, I am not even sure what is the disagreement about the marketplace issue.  As you present it, all ideas are not equal.  Agreed.  But then you tell me I have no right to question the scientific &quot;consensus.&quot;  Further, you seem to oppose me even finding out specifically what that that consensus is, and from your responses, I don&#039;t think even you know.  So if you want to blindly follow authority without even knowing what it is, that is your right.  

But that is not how science works, nor do your sources like Bickmore suggest it.  More specifically, science is about disproving hypothesis.  That is what a good scientist does.  Formulate a hypothesis, and then attack it from all sides.  Then submit it to the scientific community to be further so attacked.  Then, after that, if it stands, we have made progress.  And, it might only stand until further progress is made beyond that.  That is good science.

That is also what a good citizen does also.  But, as Bickmore cautions, it is important to get information from the right place.  Agreed.  That is why I try to get to the actual scientific basis rather than just citing &quot;Wikipedia.&quot; [&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;You clearly have not read &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my subsequent post&lt;/a&gt; that is addressed specifically to you - ML&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;]

&lt;em&gt;&quot;You continue to insist that it is necessary to question one of the most well-documented scientific facts of our age (namely that excess CO2 in our atmosphere is the primary driver of the accelerating climate disruption that is now taking place).&quot;
&lt;/em&gt;Martin, that is not the consensus.  And, yes, I absolutely insist that it is necessary to question this before, as you suggest, moving to a &quot;zero-carbon global economy.&quot;  I will tell you exactly why in a bit, as we can&#039;t address every AGW issue in every post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really only one is relevant, Martin. Again, I am not even sure what is the disagreement about the marketplace issue.  As you present it, all ideas are not equal.  Agreed.  But then you tell me I have no right to question the scientific &#8220;consensus.&#8221;  Further, you seem to oppose me even finding out specifically what that that consensus is, and from your responses, I don&#8217;t think even you know.  So if you want to blindly follow authority without even knowing what it is, that is your right.  </p>
<p>But that is not how science works, nor do your sources like Bickmore suggest it.  More specifically, science is about disproving hypothesis.  That is what a good scientist does.  Formulate a hypothesis, and then attack it from all sides.  Then submit it to the scientific community to be further so attacked.  Then, after that, if it stands, we have made progress.  And, it might only stand until further progress is made beyond that.  That is good science.</p>
<p>That is also what a good citizen does also.  But, as Bickmore cautions, it is important to get information from the right place.  Agreed.  That is why I try to get to the actual scientific basis rather than just citing &#8220;Wikipedia.&#8221; [<strong><em>You clearly have not read <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/" rel="nofollow">my subsequent post</a> that is addressed specifically to you - ML</em></strong>]</p>
<p><em>&#8220;You continue to insist that it is necessary to question one of the most well-documented scientific facts of our age (namely that excess CO2 in our atmosphere is the primary driver of the accelerating climate disruption that is now taking place).&#8221;<br />
</em>Martin, that is not the consensus.  And, yes, I absolutely insist that it is necessary to question this before, as you suggest, moving to a &#8220;zero-carbon global economy.&#8221;  I will tell you exactly why in a bit, as we can&#8217;t address every AGW issue in every post.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1358</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With respect, John, they are totally &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; two new topics.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1334&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;They&lt;/a&gt; are the very &lt;em&gt;essence&lt;/em&gt; of what we have been arguing about:

1. You continue to insist that it is necessary to question one of the most well-documented scientific facts of our age (namely that excess CO2 in our atmosphere is the primary driver of the accelerating climate disruption that is now taking place); and I am only trying to make you see sense that this is no longer a defensible position to adopt.  Far from &lt;em&gt;seeking&lt;/em&gt; it, I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that you are, as Bickmore puts it, trying too hard to &lt;em&gt;avoid &lt;/em&gt;the truth.
2. I may not have linked to my EM post before, but the quote from Arthur Mol contradicts your stated opinion that Capitalism and Environmentalism are not necessarily on a collision course.  Yet again, I repeat, I welcome the fact that you are concerned for the environment; but this does not change the reality that economic development tends to cause environmental degradation; and that pursuit of profit tends to make industry demand less environmental regulation (as per all current GOP candidates for POTUS).

So, why don&#039;t you leave the sarcasm to one side and falsify these arguments without reference to psuedo-scientific misinformation being peddled by the fossil fuel lobby (if you can)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect, John, they are totally <strong>not</strong> two new topics.  <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1334" rel="nofollow">They</a> are the very <em>essence</em> of what we have been arguing about:</p>
<p>1. You continue to insist that it is necessary to question one of the most well-documented scientific facts of our age (namely that excess CO2 in our atmosphere is the primary driver of the accelerating climate disruption that is now taking place); and I am only trying to make you see sense that this is no longer a defensible position to adopt.  Far from <em>seeking</em> it, I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that you are, as Bickmore puts it, trying too hard to <em>avoid </em>the truth.<br />
2. I may not have linked to my EM post before, but the quote from Arthur Mol contradicts your stated opinion that Capitalism and Environmentalism are not necessarily on a collision course.  Yet again, I repeat, I welcome the fact that you are concerned for the environment; but this does not change the reality that economic development tends to cause environmental degradation; and that pursuit of profit tends to make industry demand less environmental regulation (as per all current GOP candidates for POTUS).</p>
<p>So, why don&#8217;t you leave the sarcasm to one side and falsify these arguments without reference to psuedo-scientific misinformation being peddled by the fossil fuel lobby (if you can)?</p>
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		<title>By: John Kosowski</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kosowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Martin, those are really two new topics.  I don&#039;t recall discussing your modernism article, and your marketplace views are not really relevant to me nor are they pertinent to our discussion of AGW science or even philosophy.  I agree that all ideas are not equal and have never said otherwise.  The internet is great because in 10 minutes I can find step-by-step instructions on how to change my timing belt.  But in order to find it, I have to sift through many irrelevant posts.  So what?  All that matters is that I find the one that gets me the &quot;truth&quot; that I seek.  Our First Amendment is based upon that principle.  Protect all ideas, even the bad ones, so that the good ones can shine through.
So Martin, you can &quot;win&quot; arguments we haven&#039;t even had if that makes you feel better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin, those are really two new topics.  I don&#8217;t recall discussing your modernism article, and your marketplace views are not really relevant to me nor are they pertinent to our discussion of AGW science or even philosophy.  I agree that all ideas are not equal and have never said otherwise.  The internet is great because in 10 minutes I can find step-by-step instructions on how to change my timing belt.  But in order to find it, I have to sift through many irrelevant posts.  So what?  All that matters is that I find the one that gets me the &#8220;truth&#8221; that I seek.  Our First Amendment is based upon that principle.  Protect all ideas, even the bad ones, so that the good ones can shine through.<br />
So Martin, you can &#8220;win&#8221; arguments we haven&#8217;t even had if that makes you feel better.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1355</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1355</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You could start by falsifying the assertions I made &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1334&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, or you could even start a new discussion in response to &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my new post today&lt;/a&gt;, by which you may well be flattered that I have indeed addressed it directly to you. It is your decision, but I think the new post might be the tidier option (it also includes some links to things to which I have not previously referred).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could start by falsifying the assertions I made <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1334" rel="nofollow">here</a>, or you could even start a new discussion in response to <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/a-response-to-john-kosowski/" rel="nofollow">my new post today</a>, by which you may well be flattered that I have indeed addressed it directly to you. It is your decision, but I think the new post might be the tidier option (it also includes some links to things to which I have not previously referred).</p>
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		<title>By: John Kosowski</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Kosowski]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Martin, &lt;em&gt;&quot;Yearning for the sky&quot;&lt;/em&gt; has little to do with any education and more to do with a love of flight.  Which points would you like me to address?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin, <em>&#8220;Yearning for the sky&#8221;</em> has little to do with any education and more to do with a love of flight.  Which points would you like me to address?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/is-having-an-open-mind-the-problem/#comment-1353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=2077#comment-1353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Commendable evidence of a decent education, John, but what exactly is your point?

Certainly, you seem unable or unwilling to address any of mine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commendable evidence of a decent education, John, but what exactly is your point?</p>
<p>Certainly, you seem unable or unwilling to address any of mine.</p>
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