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	<title>Comments on: The frack-heads are dangerously deluded</title>
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	<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/</link>
	<description>A blog on the politics and psychology underlying the denial of all our environmental problems</description>
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		<title>By: Another Week of GW News, December 16, 2012 &#8211; A Few Things Ill Considered</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-6011</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Another Week of GW News, December 16, 2012 &#8211; A Few Things Ill Considered]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-6011</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 2012/12/10: LoE: The frack-heads are dangerously deluded [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 2012/12/10: LoE: The frack-heads are dangerously deluded [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5969</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 11:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5969</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank Patrice.  I agree that Marx failed to acknowledge the reality of Limits to Growth (just as much as all those he described as being obsessed with making money did).  As a physical scientist, I too think in terms of energy.  I am not sure when I said fracking makes geopolitical sense but, I guess that, somewhere along the way, I acknowledged the realities that make politicians like George Osborne ignore the advice of experts within the Environment Agency and the Committee on Climate Change. 

Fracking may well kill coal; the hysteria surrounding it (or global debt) has certainly now caused a slow-down in the mining boom in Australia.  However, as numerous commentators have observed, fracking may have a small physical footprint on the Earth&#039;s surface but, when you factor-in all the tanker journeys to convey the product to market, it does not have a low carbon footprint.

If nature&#039;s capital &lt;em&gt;&quot;has always been a source of income&quot;&lt;/em&gt; then, you could argue, we humans have been on an unsustainable resource depletion path from the day we started deforestation 7000 years ago.  Either way, however, our problem today is that a 50% growth in the human population (from 7 to 10.5 billion) in the next 50 years has very little chance of being sustainable - unless we all stop eating meat and build an awful lot of solar-powered water desalination plants.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank Patrice.  I agree that Marx failed to acknowledge the reality of Limits to Growth (just as much as all those he described as being obsessed with making money did).  As a physical scientist, I too think in terms of energy.  I am not sure when I said fracking makes geopolitical sense but, I guess that, somewhere along the way, I acknowledged the realities that make politicians like George Osborne ignore the advice of experts within the Environment Agency and the Committee on Climate Change. </p>
<p>Fracking may well kill coal; the hysteria surrounding it (or global debt) has certainly now caused a slow-down in the mining boom in Australia.  However, as numerous commentators have observed, fracking may have a small physical footprint on the Earth&#8217;s surface but, when you factor-in all the tanker journeys to convey the product to market, it does not have a low carbon footprint.</p>
<p>If nature&#8217;s capital <em>&#8220;has always been a source of income&#8221;</em> then, you could argue, we humans have been on an unsustainable resource depletion path from the day we started deforestation 7000 years ago.  Either way, however, our problem today is that a 50% growth in the human population (from 7 to 10.5 billion) in the next 50 years has very little chance of being sustainable &#8211; unless we all stop eating meat and build an awful lot of solar-powered water desalination plants.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrice Ayme</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5967</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrice Ayme]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 05:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Martin: You get it.

With a caveat: I disagree somewhat about the traditional mumbo-jumbo on &quot;capitalism&quot;, &quot;collapse&quot;, etc. Marx had a restricted understanding of &quot;Das Kapital&quot;, and the collapse has been stridently predicted since. As a physical scientist, I think in term of energy. Fracking makes geopolitical sense, if one is cynical enough (you said as much yourself a few months ago). It is precisely because it makes sense, that it is so dangerous. 

This being said, fracking, well done, could be used to KILL COAL, so maybe ecologists should use it that way. The swiss are proceeding full blast, and fracking there could start in 5 years. it&#039;s not just Britain.

Nature&#039;s capital has always been a source of income, and there is a race between exhausting it, and advanced tech. 
PA]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Martin: You get it.</p>
<p>With a caveat: I disagree somewhat about the traditional mumbo-jumbo on &#8220;capitalism&#8221;, &#8220;collapse&#8221;, etc. Marx had a restricted understanding of &#8220;Das Kapital&#8221;, and the collapse has been stridently predicted since. As a physical scientist, I think in term of energy. Fracking makes geopolitical sense, if one is cynical enough (you said as much yourself a few months ago). It is precisely because it makes sense, that it is so dangerous. </p>
<p>This being said, fracking, well done, could be used to KILL COAL, so maybe ecologists should use it that way. The swiss are proceeding full blast, and fracking there could start in 5 years. it&#8217;s not just Britain.</p>
<p>Nature&#8217;s capital has always been a source of income, and there is a race between exhausting it, and advanced tech.<br />
PA</p>
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		<title>By: Greenpeace response to lifting of Fracking moratorium &#171; Lack of Environment</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5948</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greenpeace response to lifting of Fracking moratorium &#171; Lack of Environment]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] discussed with a commenter on this blog (Lionel) yesterday, I decided to get involved; and to try and contact Dr Santillo personally, via [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] discussed with a commenter on this blog (Lionel) yesterday, I decided to get involved; and to try and contact Dr Santillo personally, via [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lionel A</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lionel A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 17:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would burn my copies of those Lynas books if it were not for the carbon locked up in them.

And then there is of course the Alberta tar sands imbroglio.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would burn my copies of those Lynas books if it were not for the carbon locked up in them.</p>
<p>And then there is of course the Alberta tar sands imbroglio.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5919</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 17:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5919</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, I get it now, Patrice:  You think the USA is embarking on a race - between it, Canada and Australia - to see who can sell the most finite resources to countries that still have money to spend?  Unfortunately - for USA and Canada - this policy (of mistaking Nature&#039;s capital for a source of income - E.F.Schumacher) has already proven erroneous.  Therefore, albeit two years later than the rest of the developed World, Australia has now discovered that selling itself to the highest bidder just makes its economy look like that of Angola or Azerbaijan. In other words, this is not a race to become the next superpower; it is a race to the bottom.  It is the last throw of the dice in what Schalk Cloete has identified as &lt;a href=&quot;http://oneinabillionblog.com/collapse/ponzi-schemes/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Ponzi Scheme of globalised Capitalism&lt;/a&gt;, which will collapse when the less developed economies run out of money (as China now has done).
&lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/in-search-of-the-lucky-country/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;In search of the Lucky Country (7 June 2012)&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, I get it now, Patrice:  You think the USA is embarking on a race &#8211; between it, Canada and Australia &#8211; to see who can sell the most finite resources to countries that still have money to spend?  Unfortunately &#8211; for USA and Canada &#8211; this policy (of mistaking Nature&#8217;s capital for a source of income &#8211; E.F.Schumacher) has already proven erroneous.  Therefore, albeit two years later than the rest of the developed World, Australia has now discovered that selling itself to the highest bidder just makes its economy look like that of Angola or Azerbaijan. In other words, this is not a race to become the next superpower; it is a race to the bottom.  It is the last throw of the dice in what Schalk Cloete has identified as <a href="http://oneinabillionblog.com/collapse/ponzi-schemes/" rel="nofollow">the Ponzi Scheme of globalised Capitalism</a>, which will collapse when the less developed economies run out of money (as China now has done).<br />
<a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/in-search-of-the-lucky-country/" rel="nofollow">In search of the Lucky Country (7 June 2012)</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 17:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Lionel.  

Thanks to Twitter, I was alerted to an online debate sparked by Mark Lynas and David Santillo (Greenpeace) on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/13/fracking-shale-gas&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Guardian website&lt;/a&gt; today.  To which I trotted out my now familiar line:
&lt;blockquote&gt;When will environmentalists stop arguing about whether fracking is inherently dangerous (because of its immediate and localised impacts when poorly engineered and/or executed)... and start focusing on the fact that it is intrinsicly dangerous (because we need to stop finding evermore esoteric and unconventional fossil fuel sources to exploit)...?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, I think my favourite comment is this one by someone called &lt;a href=&quot;http://discussion.guardian.co.uk/comment-permalink/20029007&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;leedsjon&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;...there are also significant economic reasons why this strategy should be abandoned once and for all - far from being any kind of &#039;cheap&#039; energy, shale gas would increase our energy bills by up to £600 over the next 10 years, compared to an increase of £100 if energy was switched to renewables! So, despite the ill informed rhetoric of the Chancellor George Osbourne, this is actually going to be the most expensive option to be considered... The argument that shale gas is low carbon originates from the claim that, compared directly, it emits lower emissions than coal. Yet this comparison does not take into account the vastly increased carbon footprint generated by the process of transporting extracted gas to gas fired power stations (which may mean convoys of up to 300 heavy goods lorries per day travelling through the areas where the shale gas mines are located)...&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Lionel.  </p>
<p>Thanks to Twitter, I was alerted to an online debate sparked by Mark Lynas and David Santillo (Greenpeace) on <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/13/fracking-shale-gas" rel="nofollow">the Guardian website</a> today.  To which I trotted out my now familiar line:</p>
<blockquote><p>When will environmentalists stop arguing about whether fracking is inherently dangerous (because of its immediate and localised impacts when poorly engineered and/or executed)&#8230; and start focusing on the fact that it is intrinsicly dangerous (because we need to stop finding evermore esoteric and unconventional fossil fuel sources to exploit)&#8230;?</p></blockquote>
<p>However, I think my favourite comment is this one by someone called <a href="http://discussion.guardian.co.uk/comment-permalink/20029007" rel="nofollow">leedsjon</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;there are also significant economic reasons why this strategy should be abandoned once and for all &#8211; far from being any kind of &#8216;cheap&#8217; energy, shale gas would increase our energy bills by up to £600 over the next 10 years, compared to an increase of £100 if energy was switched to renewables! So, despite the ill informed rhetoric of the Chancellor George Osbourne, this is actually going to be the most expensive option to be considered&#8230; The argument that shale gas is low carbon originates from the claim that, compared directly, it emits lower emissions than coal. Yet this comparison does not take into account the vastly increased carbon footprint generated by the process of transporting extracted gas to gas fired power stations (which may mean convoys of up to 300 heavy goods lorries per day travelling through the areas where the shale gas mines are located)&#8230;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Lionel A</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5914</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lionel A]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5914</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just come across this at the BBC:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20707574&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gas fracking: Ministers approve shale gas extraction&lt;/a&gt; to which I have responded with this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;All the signs from North America show that this process has many dangers not only an increase in seismic activity.

There is a great danger of drinking water sources being contaminated by process chemicals (What&#039;s in these, the operators are reluctant to be above board here?) and leaking gases.

It has been discovered in the US that the methane fraction in the air above the area of operations are elevated, posing a great risk of adding further to the total greenhouse gas (GHG) imbalance.

Once many factors of operation are internalised as cost then the economic case collapses.

This is a most unfortunate decision by a PM and Chancellor who are either woefully ignorant of the truth or don&#039;t care about same for short term game.

I was expecting this with the scare stories about power shortages being promoted through the media. If true, and it probably is in part, then shale gas is not a viable option especially if the UK&#039;s signed up to targets with respect to GHG outputs are to be met.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Others may wish to add their own perspective in the comments there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just come across this at the BBC:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20707574" rel="nofollow">Gas fracking: Ministers approve shale gas extraction</a> to which I have responded with this:</p>
<blockquote><p>All the signs from North America show that this process has many dangers not only an increase in seismic activity.</p>
<p>There is a great danger of drinking water sources being contaminated by process chemicals (What&#8217;s in these, the operators are reluctant to be above board here?) and leaking gases.</p>
<p>It has been discovered in the US that the methane fraction in the air above the area of operations are elevated, posing a great risk of adding further to the total greenhouse gas (GHG) imbalance.</p>
<p>Once many factors of operation are internalised as cost then the economic case collapses.</p>
<p>This is a most unfortunate decision by a PM and Chancellor who are either woefully ignorant of the truth or don&#8217;t care about same for short term game.</p>
<p>I was expecting this with the scare stories about power shortages being promoted through the media. If true, and it probably is in part, then shale gas is not a viable option especially if the UK&#8217;s signed up to targets with respect to GHG outputs are to be met.</p></blockquote>
<p>Others may wish to add their own perspective in the comments there.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrice Ayme</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5772</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrice Ayme]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5772</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So much to say, so little time. Let me just point out this: USA fracking depends upon the existence there of vast throw-away states (my expression). The #1 practical problem with fracking is that, even if the toxic fluids left underground stay underground (not clear!), plenty are left on the surface to start with. Actually in several countries, it&#039;s impossible to frack, because of the lack of water (!)

Other points: the Qatar gas is processed in JUST one super giant, hyper protected factory, miles long. However, one supersonic cruise missile would shut it down.

Although I do agree with Jules (&amp; Martin) about the necessity of having a much more efficient economy, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT the route presently chosen by the USA. Quite the opposite. The USA plans to export gas, oil, and coal to China...

Of these things world wars are made.

In the greater scheme of things, any outcome involving peace, long term, will have to depend upon not only renewables, but also new forms of nuclear related energies (e.g. Thorium).

As it is worldwide anti-corruption day, I wrote an article on Susan Rice, somebody as much for massive pollution as you will ever find. Obama is trying to make her the third personage of the USA in rank, just behind VP Biden.
http://patriceayme.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/no-rice-no-lice-no-dice/
PA]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So much to say, so little time. Let me just point out this: USA fracking depends upon the existence there of vast throw-away states (my expression). The #1 practical problem with fracking is that, even if the toxic fluids left underground stay underground (not clear!), plenty are left on the surface to start with. Actually in several countries, it&#8217;s impossible to frack, because of the lack of water (!)</p>
<p>Other points: the Qatar gas is processed in JUST one super giant, hyper protected factory, miles long. However, one supersonic cruise missile would shut it down.</p>
<p>Although I do agree with Jules (&amp; Martin) about the necessity of having a much more efficient economy, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT the route presently chosen by the USA. Quite the opposite. The USA plans to export gas, oil, and coal to China&#8230;</p>
<p>Of these things world wars are made.</p>
<p>In the greater scheme of things, any outcome involving peace, long term, will have to depend upon not only renewables, but also new forms of nuclear related energies (e.g. Thorium).</p>
<p>As it is worldwide anti-corruption day, I wrote an article on Susan Rice, somebody as much for massive pollution as you will ever find. Obama is trying to make her the third personage of the USA in rank, just behind VP Biden.<br />
<a href="http://patriceayme.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/no-rice-no-lice-no-dice/" rel="nofollow">http://patriceayme.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/no-rice-no-lice-no-dice/</a><br />
PA</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Lack</title>
		<link>http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/the-frack-heads-are-dangerously-deluded/#comment-5757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Lack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/?p=5055#comment-5757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should have also said that I completely agree with your assertion that the problem is our dependence upon cheap energy [as, indeed, I made clear in my &lt;a href=&quot;http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/entropy-an-unauthorised-biography/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Entropy - an anauthorised biography (7 September 2012)&lt;/a&gt;].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=cJ-J91SwP8w]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have also said that I completely agree with your assertion that the problem is our dependence upon cheap energy [as, indeed, I made clear in my <a href="http://lackofenvironment.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/entropy-an-unauthorised-biography/" rel="nofollow">Entropy - an anauthorised biography (7 September 2012)</a>].<br />
<span class='embed-youtube' style='text-align:center; display: block;'><iframe class='youtube-player' type='text/html' width='700' height='424' src='http://www.youtube.com/embed/cJ-J91SwP8w?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;fs=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;wmode=transparent' frameborder='0'></iframe></span></p>
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